This blog post is intended to go out as a reply particularly addressing those of our users who have been complaining about how PeoplePerHour.com promotes cheap labour (or “slave labour” to quote a few of our more fiery users) and how it is mistakenly claimed to favour non-UK freelancers who set cheaper fees.
As some of you may have seen, we have recently launched a section on our site called PPH Economy which reveals a lot of live data from our users, and which clearly shows who amongst our users are the winning bidders. The data speaks for itself.
A few facts:
- A mere 6.8% of bids are awarded to the lowest bidder whilst 91.2% of bids are awarded to the mid-range bidders
- 87.8% of awarded bidders are 5* freelancers
- More than 80% of winning bidders are from the UK
- 80% of our clients are also in the U.K
- Our map shows the average hourly rate per county – you will find that the majority of counties are well above the £20/hour rate
The main reason we have gone to the extent of producing PPH Economy is because we hope that in this way we can gain the trust of our users by putting it all out there.
We believe there is enough evidence to show that PeoplePerHour.com’s clients go for quality rather than lower rates. The majority of our clients are in fact successful entrepreneurs who have gone through a lot of efforts to establish their business – the point being that they wouldn’t jeopardize these efforts by accepting freelancers who don’t believe in their own skills enough to demand a reasonable fee for their work, and who haven’t gone through the trouble of building up a good profile with feedback portraying their quality above everything else.
In other words, if you believe in your skill and talent – don’t set your fees too low, and concentrate on building up your profile, feedback and reputation through intelligent, regular bidding and hard work. The stats are still on your side. And stats don’t lie.
I am relatively new to PPH and I was about to pass a comment of the ridiculously low rates that some clients seem to expect to pay – if you want quality work you don’t pay minimum wage levels or just marginally above.
There have been some jobs I would be interested in pitching for but why bother when they obviously have no grasp of what it costs to get what they want.
Equally I assume that some freelancers are going in at the levels indicated in the job post – that does none of us any good.
As a newcomer I think this is a great concept but I am struggling to see how I can make money if all your clients expect a Rolls Royce for the price of Lada
I think you should encourage, guide, educate your clients to set reasonable budget expectations otherwise the cheap slave labour jibes will continue.
Whenever I’ve recurited people through people per hour type websites I have NEVER just picked the lowest bidder. And in several instances i have picked the highest bidder.
I look at a combination of things: Are they capable of doing the job to the standard I want. Can they do it on time. Can i work with them etc.
I also avoid people who don’t have portfolios, or references.
There have been times when bids have come in in excess of what we were expecting to pay. In those instances I have increased the budget. So you should bid for a few jobs even suggesting a higher rate (and justifying why you should be paid a higher rate).
There is a problem when you’re talking to start ups who clearly haven’t built the costs for writers into their business plans, or at least, say their budget is low. The “less than reputable” freelance websites (no names mentioned) have reinforced a general worldwide perception that content is cheap to buy – you see references to that perception everywhere and you will sometimes hear a buyer saying that he or she would do it themselves but for the time involved. Clearly they’re not looking for professional writing per se, but they’ll be very glad of a professional writer’s services if they can get away with paying far less than the going rate.
I wonder whether it’s time for reputable sites – like this one – to state a minimum fee for buyers. Maybe restrict the types of project offered to writers. Or does that reduce the number of buyers using the site? Where do freelance website profits stop and industry standards start – and can country-specific industry standards be applied in a global market?
I’d be prepared to charge a lower fee – but not as low as those being paid by charlatans on those other sites ($0.05 for 500 words?? come on) – for quick, short pieces if it meant that the overall fee for a big order provided me with a decent amount for a specific period of time, but of course it’s Catch-22 because that perpetuates the idea that quick short content is available on the cheap. I don’t have any answers. Perhaps other writers have some insights to share.
It is interesting to see, though, that generally, writers are right at the bottom of the pile when you look at fees offered on freelance sites. Checking the NUJ for suggested freelance writer fees shows that despite the suggested rates, there’s a wide range of fees actually being paid throughout the print and online industry.
There are buyers who recognise the value of good writing and those who don’t, just as there are buyers who have set aside a sensible budget for writers, and those who don’t even bother. Somewhere in between, I believe there are some bona fide buyers who would pay more if they could. It’s a call only we can make when we’re finding work, to separate those distinctions.
I’d be very interested in widening this discussion.
I totally agree with everything in this post; I started to work through PPH at the end of November, grasped the nettle and bid ONLY at what I believed was a fair rate and NOT what I thought it would take to win the bid.
If your credentials are good, and your experience is relevant – or better still, you can outline in your bid how you propose to add value to the work you do, I dont think any freelancers should be afraid to stick to their guns on their hourly rate. Plus, it will be good for the rest of us!
As you win more bids, and gain more feedback, it does seem that the invitations to bid and the serious considerations to bids made becomes more forthcoming.
I think PPH are brilliant – I get most of my work through this website and would reservedly recommend them to anyone thinking of starting out as a freelancer.
I believe PPH should take the initiative by fixing a minimum rate. It will definitely attract good jobs and also quality writers.
Visawnathan – agreed. People outside the UK will get paid more than their local rates and people in the UK won’t get undercut so often – sounds good to me.
I agree the ethics of the site but am so fed up with putting in more than reasonable priced bids only to have the client beat us down with a stick cuase they want a project for the same price as Mr Jone offering everything for £50 in outa nowhere.
As a web design / ecommerce solutions provider we cant possibly work for £50 a project. Would you drop your iMac from a third story window and expect the manufacturer to repair it for a tenner. No I didnt think so. Come on people we need some stability on this site.
I think this is an important statement. But I will be honest I have not bothered with PPH for a while now due to ‘Ebay’ mentality some clients go for. Now PPH have seemed to address most of my concerns, I will be looking to activly promote myself again on here. Its good to see that having a 5* rating should go in my favour, but the proof will be in what happens over the next 3 – 6 months.
I think some of you need to get over yourselves, the choice is to work in the offer & bid marketplace or go get a day job. Minimums?.. wow… how quaint. why dont pph just send you a cheque each month.
If you dont like it get your clients from somewhere else and stop bothering the rest of us with your whinning.
I have to say that many jobs on offer are at a rate that simply isn’t worth it. Many jobs on offer require skills which are highly sought after in the job market and highly paid.
So why should the posters offer next to nothing for the skill?.
I’ve been tracking the jobs daily and have bid somewhere between the lowest and highest.
Many jobs never get awareded afterwards, so what’s the point of selling your skills at a fraction of the market going rate and the job isn’t awarded to ANYONE!
I am new to PPH, though not new to working in a freelance capacity. I agree with the comments concerning clients posting vacancies with a very low budget, with this I can also appreciate others views that the client is being unrealisitc and needs to look again at the proposal made for people to then bid on the job.
I am all for freelancers who see an ad they are interested in (with a low budget)to explain that they feel the budget is a little low for the amount of work requried, and to engage with the client to see if they would look again at what they could pay. However I have to say how astonished I am at some of the posts on the clarification board from freelancers who have been down right rude to the client. I have read several where it has almost turned into a personal attack on the client, (again I appreciate how frustrating it can be regarding budgets) but I also see it from the other side of the coin, reading it actually makes the freelancer who wrote it very unprofessional, this can have an impact on other freelancers and PPH too. I just feel that if you are not happy with a budget but are interested in the job the best way about it is to talk to the client about it in a professional manner, being rude gets you nowhere (they certainly would not hire if you are rude anyway).
What I can not understand is if you feel that the budget is way off, and you have talked about it being raised but client will not do so, why go into personal attack? why not just think well ok, your loss as I could have done this really well if you were prepared to change the amount offered, not bother posting, not bother bidding and look for other ads to bid on. Surely that is a more professional approach?
I am not meaning to bring offence to anyone with this post, but it is something that has been rattling my cage so to speak, and I can not be the only one that feels like this surely?
I am new to PPH, I run a catering consultancy and am due to launch a new product. before placing my advert I reviewed similar tasks and took into consideration the fact I didn’t budget for this work to come up with a figure that was affordable to me. Whilst I appreciate that it may cheap, I will not be opting for the lowest quote, indeed the 3 that have made my shortlist so far are at the top end, and one is even £30 above my budget.
This is a learning curve for both sides I feel, thus it is unfair to class project placers with the same brush, I have learnt lessons from my first posting that will enable me to improve further jobs. I am very happy with the feed back and freelancers that have replied.
It is stated that 80% of jobs go to people from the UK or in the UK. I am an English woman who lives abroad for most of my time. I joined PPH in October 2010, but as yet, have had no success whatsoever in gaining a role from this site. Am I, too, being penalised because I choose to not reside in the UK?
I have a set hourly rate which I quoted on every hourly paid job, only to be beaten to the post by someone else offering to do the work for peanuts. I have even been rejected on some jobs even though I have bid at the lowest price, only to be told that “my price was too high”!! Other jobs, I have lost to freelancers bidding at LOWER than the minimum budget stated by the client.
Surely, if the client has a minimum budget, it should be impossible to enter a lower amount on the bidding panel.
I have also read all the comments on this blog and was interested in the one above from a client. They said they would never employ a freelancer who has no portfolio. How are we expected to build a portfolio or indeed gain feedback if nobody is willing to give us a chance in the first place? There are some good people out there (myself included) who have a lot to offer, but who are finding it impossible to get their foot in the door.
Please give us a break.
I agree with everyone here to some extent.
Bottom line… there are good and bad clients here.
The good come here but still expect a great job for smaller fees than they know they should be paying elsewhere. They are making a business decision in these hard times to try to save money. OK fair enough. We’ll all have to live with that – within reason.
Then there are the other clients, which quite honestly, PPH are responsible for and they are aware of. These are not clients. They know nothing about the skills required to create what they are asking for but they also don’t care and don’t want to know. It’s these people PPH must get rid of somehow, and they must take this issue seriously.
How do they do it? Easy… they set a minimum hourly rate based on industry levels. These are public knowledge or they can phone up Design Week or Creative Review for the information.
Seeemples!
This site is a real shame…great idea (wish I had thought of it) but needs sorting if they expect to be taken seriously by serious professionals and serious clients.
Jonathan
What I dislike is an increase of request for “data” “example” and “sample” this drives me insane when clients ask again and again and lure people in more work if they see more…
Even a watermark design is no protection, because there is a recognizabe shape and hence idea…
It is a waste of time.
In addtion I have 122 bids, of which a lot are immediate jobs or so I thought! I ve not heard anything from the clients and the bid is opened!
What I dislike is an increase of request for “data” “example” and “sample” this drives me insane when clients ask again and again and lure people in more work if they see more…
Even a watermark design is no protection, because there is a recognizabe shape and hence idea…
It is a waste of time.
In addtion I have 122 bids, of which a lot are immediate jobs or so I thought! I ve not heard anything from the clients and the bid is opene
I recently de-registered with PPH for most of the reasons laid out above. Particularly, as a highly experienced and infinitely adaptable copywriter, the rates for my hard honed skills were ridiculous. The writing needs in the “brief” were always bottom of the pile, money-wise. Most of the “clients” don’t appreciate they’re not getting a few hours of my time, but 40 years accumulated award winning experience gained in blue chip International agencies. That’s my great skill, learnt over a lifetime- and it’s worth much more than peanuts. Asking for a Rolls Royce for the price of a Lada ( for us writers: a Trabant?) is indeed one way to sum it up.
Best amongst several good ideas already posted: set minimum industry fees, with no under cutting (not even 80%) and this great PPH concept might just begin to work. Then I’ll come back in, spread the word, and be a lot more hopeful than when I left.
Mike
.
Hello,
I feel that peopleperhour has a great initiative in the form of the economy reports that it publishes.If we go through it,we find the trends on PPH and it helps to adapt to the situation.
I have never charged low but have always been reasonable and fair to my clients.This what has earned me two 5/5 .
Promise what you can deliver and charge for the same
I am new today and have yet to see if my bids are successful. Some of the rates are low – minimum wage or a few pence over, so I intend to avoid these and ask the market rate. Bidding too low encourages clients to offer low pay, so I hope things stay bouyant and realistic. I am looking forward to a successful bid as this is a learning curve for me, too.
By the way, wouldn’t it be a more sensible option for the list of responses to be in latest entry first rather than having to scroll right through?
Freelancers are forced to lower their rate to get work. If employers offer reasonable rates on basis of quality of work, not on strength of rates quoted to get work, this problem may be solved in relative but not in definite terms.
I am another one about to give up on freelancing and sites like pph.
I have years of experience as a technical writer, business analyst, QA tester and web developer. I even have lots of qualifications to back me up. To say that I have the experience and knowledge behind me is an understatement.
However, it seems I can’t win any bids on pph unless I offer to do something below the minimum wage.
Now I have decided that I will be better off working in the real world. Even if that involves flipping burgers because that will pay more.
From my experience, I would never suggest to anyone to go freelancing unless they have a solid client base behind them.
Even worse are all those sites that promise to buy this book, e-book etc and you too could be successful online. It is all just a scam. Working online just doesn’t work.
We live in a global world now and some people who we are competing against are living with mum and dad in a part of the world where a few dollars is a day’s wage.
On this point, there really is nothing more to say than don’t go freelancing online!
Hey A Thomas,
We’re sorry to hear you feel like this. We’ve sent you an email directly, we hope this helps…
Martin, PeoplePerHour team
Re. some of the above. I have been working via PPH as a writer and researcher for a couple of months now, and I have consistently earned a living each week, above UK minimum wage.
I am getting paid better than for temporary admin work, which was all I could get in the “real world”, and as a bonus I do not have the cost of commuting, or the psychological stress of being in an office environment.
After a couple of months, it is still early days, but I am hopeful that I will continue to make a living in this way, and I believe it is possible to make a living online.
I think that PPH should be restricted to UK based freelancers only and feel that it is unfair to allow freelancers from outside the U.K. to bid for jobs. The U.K. has a very high unemployment rate and people are desperate for work. It is not right for people from other countries to be submitting lower bids. I have only been with PPH for one month but so far I have not been successful with my bids. Newcomers need a start in order to get reviewed and build-up their profiles. I also notice that bids have an end date yet some jobs are awarded befored the bid end date, possibly to people who have used the private message board to offer a lower bid.
Interesting comments as always. Jobs and payments are always difficult. We’ve noticed in the past 3 months, we’ve not had a single bid accepted despite having won 11 jobs, with 5 star feedback a full portfolio etc, etc. It appears that clients are looking for the lowest bids at the moment and I guess this has a lot to do with the economy. It’s a vicious circle.
Maybe one way to address the problem of unrealistic budgets if for PPH to supply “guides” for services. For example a guide to website design/development – what to expect, approximate costs, timescales etc. For copywriters, same thing. Obviously, this would be a very generic guide and I’m sure freelancers from this site would contribute towards these guides. They would just be “pointers” to guide the client (nothing set in stone). For example:
A basic business Content Management System containing 5 pages, contact form and social media links may take 2 weeks to complete and you should expect to pay around £350 (FOR EXAMPLE)
This may assist clients and freelancers alike. All it would take would be for PPH to circulate questionaires to freelancers to gain the information and calculate averages. At the end of the day, the client posts their own spec and budget, but for novices, a practical guide may help.
Just a though, probably won’t get implemented but it’s always worth a shot.
The post by ‘Penny’ isnt real. If she were a freelancer then a simple click on her name would refer me to more information about her.
A real shame this system of online freelancing isnt working out. Some very discouraging reports from people.
Everything I’ve read in date order has put me off registering and spending time creating online portfolios etc.
Shall keep checking to see if the tide turns.
I agree with some of the above comments regarding the difficulty of making a start with this website when the obstacles are so daunting. How do you break out of the ‘vicious circle’ of seeking work when you supposedly need a portfolio and references before any client will offer you anything? I have considerable experience writing and teaching, and have journalistic and academic skills that have been put to good use in published works. But try telling clients that! I left PPH for this reason. There were some ideal contracts I bid sensibly for, quite often below the real worth of the task. But even then nothing came of them. I have had similar experiences to a number of previous contributors, and do wonder if there isn’t an established group of freelancers who have somehow managed to entrench themselves and tend to scoop up most of the work. This is no criticism of them, and I’m sure they deserve the contracts, but what about the vast numbers who register with this site in the hope of ‘getting a foot in the door’ and probably getting nothing at all? PPH has been going for some time now, and I would guess that this problem for the majority of would-be freelancers is going to get a good deal worse. I also concur with those who argue for a set minimum rate to avoid some of the ridiculously low-priced bids. On balance I would also agree that freelancers would be better off looking for jobs in the real world. At least you might make something!
It’s all very well saying that ” 87.8% of awarded bidders are 5* freelancers”, but the hardest part is getting that first successful bid.
I am a newbie, trying to enter in competitive bids. See what happens.
If you think bidding low is going to get you work, you are the problem, I bid what I am worth, and then some , because when your are dealing with people they always want to inject their ideas to the project even if it’s at the last moment. Which will cost you time and money. I may bid on 20 projects to get one but the one I get I’m making money on, I get a lot of repeat business, and referrals from clients all over the world, So I’m not about to jeopardize a good paying job to do a low paying job.
I fill a particular niche, so if you want American on screen talent for your video, you’ll probably find me, Good Luck to you all
Online freelancing sites = slave wages.
Hey Steve
We’re sorry you feel this way and honestly, that’s not PPH’s mission statement nor the nature of our business. Yes we are a marketplace but as some of the stats we’ve published on the PPH Economy page shows, 89.4% of bids are awarded to those freelancers bidding in the Mid-range, rather than the lowest range.
I like David’s attitude (above) “I bid what I am worth, and then some”. Seems like a good strategy for success and happiness.
Martin, — PeoplePerHour team
Hi,
Just reading through these posts, and the main thrust seems to be “it doesn’t work”, and “minimum wage”, so let me try and redress the balance. I’m coming from the perspective of ongoing work, not “one-offs” here.
I have been working here for a few months now – not as my only source of income, but as part of a “boutique” of options. In terms of the work that I have received here, I am really not convinced by the “UK jobs for UK people” argument (I’m not a Union man…), the vast majority of the work I have done has been for companies overseas. I guess there are some US citizens or Europeans complaining that other countries are taking their jobs….
I produce corporate eLearning, and voiceovers, a bit of a niche market, (and if you think there’s a huge problem here with “lowest bid” issues, you should try the voiceover industry, and the “I am willing to Hire non-Union labour” tick-box!!!).
I am told that I win business because I am good/great at what I do – price seldom ever enters the equation. I win against “home grown” talent because I offer something different, compelling, and can add-value to the buyer.
“Rates for skillls” is NOT what selling is about – and ANYBODY trying to work here is a salesperson first and foremost. Let me just say that again, as it is soooo important:
**Anyone here, copywriter, web designer, shepherd or hamster-juggler HAS TO BE a SALESPERSON first. If you do not have selling skills, or are aware of selling skills, and how to sell and promote, you will struggle.**
Granted – you also need some luck, but as I tell my Mum, “I’ve worked DAMNED hard for my luck…”
Anyone who bases their business on price/cost is opening themselves upto price/cost competition, you will always be a “box-shifter”. I know it’s all a bit “sales-speak”, but your aim is to become a “trusted advisor” – it makes you the “go-to” guy, and less reliant on cost/price fighting. You help to WRITE the brief – writing it to YOUR strengths.
Selling is about more than costs, it IS about having a portfolio, it IS about setting qualitty expectations, it IS about proving that you can add value to a client/company. And it is a hard, hard road to trudge, with immeasurable lows yet offering SUPERB highs. So many people give up just before the point where they are going to win.
Let’s now talk about economics. Just because you start at a price for one client does not mean that you have to stay at that price, or cannot deliver more “upsells” in somee way once you develop a relationship with them (assuming it is not just a one-off deal). I have made some HIDEOUS pricing errors – partly because of the “bid” system, (I can only guess at a project before seeing it and starting it), so occasionally you need to take a loss-leader, then enter a price/cost dialogue with the customer, get on track, get to a win:win, and then get back to supplying a valued service. I have NEVER had an existing client refuse a price increase, because we have negotiated them based on a rational understanding of work practice and value. Remember – very often a client will not know how to run a project when it’s a new “thing” they need to do, in the unwritten book of selling, (although it is out there is you look…), they are asking for your help…and (SECRET #1) – they will pay for that.
Some posters in this thread want to restrict it to “UK Bidders only”. So what about clients? Do I tell my US, or European, or Australian clients/prospects that actually they are restricted to UK workers? I think I know the response!
A quick word on “Portfolios”. There is a difference between “A portfolio of skills” and “A portfolio of jobs”. While you are waiting for work, build a portfolio that highlights your SKILLS. Make sure it is clear that examples are examples only. A lot of “real” work is covered by NDAs, so you cannot show it anyway….(SECRET #2)….clients expect this. Yes – really – clients are buying your SKILLS rather than your JOBS. In the voiceover industry it is called a “showreel”. No-one thinks I have worked for the BBC, or produced an eBook for Terry Pratchett, but they are in my showreel. Go make a “showreel” – you have plenty of time, because you are not winning work.
A question – honestly asked. How many people on this site, failing to get work have ever read a (serious) book on sales technique? Go on….think….? Do the words “Miller Heiman” mean anything? Do you fully undertand the words “prospecting”, “pipeline”, and upsell? How many people GET a client and ask them directly, (when they have completed a great job), …”Could you please give me the name of someone else that I could contact, who you think might be able to use my services?”. Can you name mee 5 closing techniques, or do you understand the principles of continuous-closing, through out the sales cycle?
No? Then you are possibly not ready for freelancing.
THIS is what you need to do, possibly OUTSIDE the PPH environment whilst you are getting going. Not only do you need a portfolio, you may need to be running a “boutique” of work. Freelance or permanent – it’s not “either/or”. It could be PPH + a long-term contract + being directly approached + ad-hoc work from your network , (you do formally network don’t you? BusinessLink, breakfast clubs etc???).
Many jobs don’t get awarded – well perhaps they just went somewhere else? That’s called business. It’s what you or I would do if we were clients rather than suppliers.
Someone above said “the hardest part is finding that 1st successful bid”. Correct. This is business. You now run your own business – and you need to be incredibly tenacious. I’m not saying that everything in the garden is rosy, but you win some, you lose some, (probably lose more than you win). In the last year I have won 3% of the voiceovers I have auditioned for (on another site I hasten to add…) – work out the numbers, BUT, that’s probably about right/industry average.
If you find that you are “constantly losing bids”, maybe you need to change your approach to win more – as they say – “same old approaches, same old result”.
Lastly, have a read of a short business book called “Who Moved My Cheese”. It will help you to get your head around the changing world we live in, AND it’s about mice too, so that MUST be a good thing
Long live PPH, and the other sites like it, however, long live the realisation from suppliers of what this is REALLY all about. Even in these economic times, people ARE still willing to find good people. They are using a site that means they do not have to fund someone’s chair, their desk, heating and lighting and the coffee machine. The ONE thing they DO still want is **quality**, and (LAST SECRET…) they ARE still willing to pay for it.
Sorry for the CAPS, a “bold” feature would have been nice
Just my 2p worth – for what it is worth. I just felt it needed saying somewhere.
Bruce
Hey Bruce,
That’s a – quite frankly – amazing response there, incredibly positive and perhaps helpful to others.
Thank you so much for taking the time to share the secrets of your success.
Martin
I completely agree with Bruce. I have been moderately successul through the site – had my fair share of knockbacks. I have worked with some great people and developed some ongoing relationships. I have done some fairly ‘cheap’ menial tasks – but hey somebody has to do it and if I can earn a few quid more and have nothing else to do – why not?
You have to be confident at what you do and be able to sell that confidence in your own abilities to a stranger. Then you must back it up with some kind of tangible evidence that you can indeed do what you say you can do. I have come across various people who have abandoned and/or reallocated projects because the freelancer didn’t deliver. It undermines the client’s confidence in the system and may inhibit them from using the site in future. These people are always prepared to pay a fair rate for the task because it is the task that is most important to them.
For the jobs worth having, price is seldom the issue.
Bruce –
can i just say as the founder and CEO of PPH : i am moved by your response and i have been spitting blood saying the same things over and over when people criticise us of promoting cheap labour and all the rest of it. I must say you have put it better than i ever have so from now on i will pass on the critics to your post
Thank you for the praise and most of all taking the time of offer your (clearly successful) approach to freelancing. I think people can and should learn from these insights.
Best,
xenios
Bruce, you and I should get together and have little PPH blog off-spring. Amen.
I have been using the service a few times and I am now developing a project that requires lots of work that I am not able to pay for what it is worth. Nonetheless, people are bidding. copiously. from all over the world.
I think you actually are democratizing the work market worldwide.
Great work. I am loving PPH !!!
I have been registered for a while on PPH, although I have yet to score a freelance writing / editing gig. Overall, I have been impressed with the realism of the budgets, the client response time to queries raised and the willingness of the PPH community to tackle sub minimum wage rates.
I strongly believe it will be easier to get work on PPH after that first paid job and, in comparison with other online work portals, that PPH represents a good opportunity for UK freelancers. Right, must dash – I need to check out today’s offerings!
I doubt if this post will see the light of day…
The owners clearly needed some support and got a good response from their pal Bruce, which was nice of him.
Talking of salesmanship, one aspect is ‘know your customer’…check out Luca B’s post of July 10. That’s your customer. Says it all.
I left PPH about a year ago and the argument was exactly the same then. I went for a couple of dozen projects with medium bids and got nowhere. My work is good, my experience long and I know how to close (thanks for the sage advice Bruce) but, eventually, I realised I couldn’t compete with a $50 bid for a full corporate identity design. I was spending more time bidding than I was ever going to earn….and in anybody’s business book that’s not a good use of time for a freelancer. So I chose to refuse to play somebody else’s game.
For that’s what it is my good friends. It is PPH’s game. It is about volume, not quality. They don’t give a shit as long as the volume is maintained and, preferably, increased…as long as SOMEBODY gets the gig. Don’t be fooled by their assertions that they would prefer bigger budgets…five jobs with low budgets is better than one high budget job. That’s why Asda is doing well and your local Deli is closed.
But, like the News of the world, until volume starts to be threatened, nothing will change.
Best of luck to you all.
Hey Brian
Firstly, here at PPH we’re committed to open dialogue with our community – sometimes the most negative (as long as it’s constructive) feedback is the most valuable way for us to understand how we can improve, so we’re more than happy to share your comments.
I’m sorry to hear you left PPH, especially for the reasons you outline because we know this is something that frustrates freelancers in general. For this reason we have been working hard to launch features like the enhanced “Feedback to Budget” function: http://blog.peopleperhour.com/blogroll/feedback-to-budgets/
We know this isn’t the final step in the route to ensuring freelancers always see good quality jobs but we feel it’s a big step forward and one that reflects the importance of maintaining balance between client and freelancer satisfaction – without either side the market place breaks down.
We would however, take this moment to strongly refute that we don’t care “as long as the volume is maintained.” We are firmly committed to matching with quality freelancers with quality clients wherever possible. As I mentioned above, from our stats 89.4% of bids are awarded to those freelancers bidding in the Mid-range, rather than the lowest range.
We hope this helps clarify our position and if there’s anything we can do to change your mind about returning to the site, do let us know.
Martin, PeoplePerHour team
Hi,
I still consider myself to be in the early days of freelancing (couple of months). I use PPH and other, similar sites as well as off site marketing. My experience with PPH is broadly positive and I generally agree with Bruce’s comments.
To put specific measurements on things I earn on average double the minimum wage for my work on PPH and well above industry average for the type of work I have completed. The work I have won through PPH has been entry level, but I have also managed to up-sell to more lucrative work.
To be frank the fact that there is so much negativity on this blog cheers me up no end. For those commenter’s with a less mature attitude to bidding and finding work, they will post bitterly here; and they will give up using PPH, perhaps freelancing altogether. This reduces the noise of badly thought out and poorly put together bids sent to my perspective clients, allowing my bid to shine through.
If I have one criticism though, it would be on the client side. Here I agree with some posters who feel there is a focus on quantity over quality. I hate wading through junk ‘jobs’ to find the quality jobs to bid on.
Perhaps some controls can be put in place to discourage casual job descriptions being written (possibly charge to offer a job). This would focus the mind of the job poster to be clear in what he wants from the freelancer in terms of skills, time and results.
So, to the haters: hate and be on your way, I will pick-up the work you are not prepared to bid for. And to PPH: quality over quantity please!
That’s all.
Bruce – I couldn’t agree with you more. What you say about a portfolio of jobs is exactly right – do join us over on the portfolio careers group at PPH! Yes there are plenty of people on here hoping to bag a bargain but you get what to pay for. Just this morning I spoke to a client who was more than willing to consider a revised bid more than 7 times what they originally thought they wanted to pay because they didn’t realise what was involved. People are willing to pay for expertise and want to be guided through the process by professionals for a fair price.
Oh well Brian – I never said it would work for everyone. I wish you success in your chosen personal selling and employment strategy.
I’m nobody’s “pal”, just a punter trying to pay the mortgage, and succeeding in what I do. My “sage advice” is something offered to those who want it, I guess you do not, so that’s fine.
All I want to try and do, when appropriate, is to try and help others have the same success I have had through sites like this. I just closed the year at a figure that had my accountant shocked, (in a recession, in the training industry, which is always the first to suffer).
I work COMPLETELY through sites like this, personal networking, and an agency (on a contract that was originally a few months, and has just been extended after 18 for another 6). My first job here was a “loss leader”, but has developed into a significant and ongoing opportunity. Saying that, I completely appreciate that it requires some personal tenacity and luck to get the jobs, and that it is not a life that everyone can survive at, so again, I wish you luck.
It is, I think, a mark of the way this site is run that your post did not get moderated out, I for one thank you for posting it.
The Local Deli, (open all hours and Sundays, please queue here…).
Bruce – I just went to find your original comment after seeing it mentioned a couple of times.
Thats an awesome piece of feedback and great advice.
My experience here as a PPH freelancer has been good compared to other freelance sites I have used.
I first registered in July 2009 but didn’t really start using the site until a year ago, since then I have had some good success at getting jobs at a reasonable rate or taking on small jobs and up selling turning them into long term steady work.
For me I have found the best success by being very selective about what jobs to bid on and writing each bid individually resisting the temptation to copy / paste.
My tips when writing bids would include:
> Make the first sentence something that will draw the reader in. He/She may have 50 bids to look at so may only scan the first few lines before moving onto the next.
> Tell the prospective client what you can bring that a lower priced bid can’t.
> When listing experience and skills make sure its relevant to that specific job and not just a generic list
> Include portfolio item that are relevant –
> if you don’t have a portfolio consider doing a couple of jobs at a low cost, think of it as a marketing investment.
> If you are not getting any interest in your bids, try something different.
Nick
I don’t think that this online environment is actually meant for everyone, online pitching is a very specific skill, and there are plenty of talented people not getting work.
Also I think it’s untrue to say PPH think only of quantity. And as Bruce alluded to, this is highlighted by the fact they do listen, and don’t censor discussion. Putting changes into practice over such a large growing platform is also no mean feat.
You need to think of PPH (to continue the analogy) more like a supermarket – with a budget range, and a deli counter. Where you shop within store, depends on what you want.
If you consider yourself high-end goods, then the trick is spotting the clients looking for the low-end ‘value’ range, and either convincing them of the long term benefits of the investment in you, or ignoring them altogether.
Either that or open up your own deli… like many freelancers do – it’s just as hard to find work that way.
Nick,
Thanks. Your post demonstrates why you are at #1 in the listings, (the man to beat….).
Your bids are a value statement, not a skills profile. Bidders already have our skills profile, but they want to know, when we bid, how we can “…help them to sleep soundly at night”.
I, Nick Horrocks, will explain to you how I will take away your business pain, on this specific business problem, using these resources, and this experience, at this cost..
That, (+ some luck and tenacity) is what it takes to survive and thrive in any business, online or not.
Best of luck, and see you on the leader list as soon as I can
Bruce
Martin (PPH)
In regards to the quality v quantity debate, what are the stats in relation to number of jobs posted against jobs awarded. The figures on PPH economy don’t mention this.
Regards
David
Martin,
Also useful would be number of members vs. number of members who have actually bid/won, or “active” members – whatever that is deined as….
Bruce